CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday, new president, growing challenges.
CHIEF JUSTICE JOHN ROBERTS:
So help you God.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
So help me God.
CHUCK TODD:
Joe Biden takes the oath of office with a message of unity.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
Politics doesn't have to be a raging fire, destroying everything in its path.
CHUCK TODD:
President Trump leaves Washington without attending the inauguration.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Goodbye, we love you. We will be back in some form.
CHUCK TODD:
And Mr. Biden immediately gets to work undoing the Trump presidency with executive orders covering issues from immigration to the economy.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
There's no time to start like today.
CHUCK TODD:
My guest this morning, President Biden's chief of staff, Ron Klain. Plus: "Full-scale wartime effort" against Covid.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
Let me be clearest on this point: help is on the way.GOV. JARED POLIS:
We need more vaccine, we need more vaccine, we need more vaccine.
CHUCK TODD:
Mr. Biden reverses the Trump approach, launching a centralized response to fight the pandemic.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
If we get 70-85% of the country vaccinated, let’s say by the end of the summer, by the time we get to the fall, we will be approaching a degree of normality.
CHUCK TODD:
Also: Impeachment, Part II. The Senate trial begins in two weeks. What could impeachment mean for the new president's call for unity?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
It's unconstitutional. It sets a bad precedent for the presidency and it continues to divide the nation.
REP. NANCY PELOSI:
I don't think it's very unifying to say, “oh let's just forget it,” and move on.
CHUCK TODD:
I'll talk to Democratic Senator Dick Durbin of Illinois and Republican Senator Mike Rounds of South Dakota. Joining me for insight and analysis are: NBC News chief Washington correspondent Andrea Mitchell, New York Times columnist David Brooks, Yamiche Alcindor, White House correspondent for PBS NewsHour and Tim Alberta, chief political correspondent for Politico. Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history. This is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
Good Sunday morning from our brand new studio where we are broadcasting from after more than 60 years at our historic location in upper Northwest Washington. A new studio for a new administration. Much as President Trump sought to undo the legacy of his predecessor, Barack Obama, so Joe Biden is moving to escape the shadow of Donald Trump and unwind that presidency. Four years after President Trump's "American carnage" speech, Joe Biden stressed a theme of unity in his inaugural address. Then, moving on from rhetoric, Mr. Biden went to work immediately to erase much of what he could with a pen of Donald Trump's presidency issuing 17 executive orders on day one on everything from economic relief to climate change to racial justice to immigration to the pandemic. And of course, oh by the way, an order that stopped construction on the wall. In addition to all of that, the House will transmit its article of impeachment to the Senate tomorrow, with a trial in two weeks. But it is one issue -- the pandemic -- that presents the new Biden administration with both its greatest challenge and its greatest opportunity. The president's ambitious, multi-tiered national strategy to combat the virus is precisely the kind of muscular response the Trump administration avoided. So will it work? 418,000 Americans are dead from Covid-19, and another 100,000 likely to die in the next 30 days. It's not hyperbole to say the Biden presidency hinges on its success against the pandemic. His administration's success in taking on all aspects of this health catastrophe will also go a long way towards not just determining America's trust in this new president but in proving that government still has the ability to get big things done.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
We’re in a national emergency, we need to act like we’re in a national emergency.
CHUCK TODD:
President Biden - whose campaign was defined by a single issue --
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
Covid-19. Covid-19, Covid-19. Covid-19
CHUCK TODD:
-- now is faced with the challenge of delivering on his promise to make government effective again.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
We will be judged, you and I, by how we resolve these cascading crises of our era. This is the first one I'm signing.
CHUCK TODD:
In an NBC News poll, just 11 percent of voters say vaccine administration has been going very well. Among those who say delivery falls short, 64% blame the federal government.
VACCINE RECIPIENT:
We spent hours, two or three hours at a time and often with no luck.
CHUCK TODD:
The president is doubling down on his pledge to deliver 100 million vaccinations in his first 100 days.
GOV. JARED POLIS:
We need more vaccine. We need more vaccine. We need more vaccine
CHUCK TODD:
And the administration is already struggling on how best to reassure the public.
JEFF ZIENTS:
What we're inheriting is so much worse than we could have imagined.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
No I mean we certainly are not starting from scratch because there is activity going on in the distribution.
CHUCK TODD:
President Biden now faces two challenges: making red-state Republican governors into partners.
GOV. SPENCER COX:
This shouldn't be the hunger games like it was with PPE.
CHUCK TODD:
Including some Trump allies who are dismissive of his plans.
GOV. RON DESANTIS:
I saw some of the stuff that Biden’s putting out, he’s going to create these FEMA camps or whatever. I can tell you that’s not necessary in Florida.
CHUCK TODD:
And forging enough cooperation with Republicans in Washington to deliver on his ambitious agenda.
PRES. JOE BIDEN: It requires the most elusive of all things in a democracy: unity.
CHUCK TODD:
But President Biden's call to dial down the temperature of political disagreements may quickly face its limits when it comes to policy consensus.
SEN. TOM COTTON:
President Biden sounded a lot of notes of unity in his inaugural address, but unfortunately when he got back to the White House he implemented a bunch of far left policies.
CHUCK TODD:
Republicans and Democrats can't even agree on ground rules for running the Senate. Especially whether to keep the filibuster.
SEN MITCH MCCONNELL:
I cannot imagine the Democratic leader would rather hold up the power sharing agreement, than simply reaffirm that his side won't be breaking the standing rule of the Senate.
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
Leader McConnell's proposal is unacceptable. And it won't be accepted.
CHUCK TODD:
Biden economic adviser Brian Deese is scheduled to brief a bipartisan group of Senators in a call today to push his 1.9 trillion dollar covid relief plan. And while President Biden urges Congress to tackle his priorities quickly, --
JOE BIDEN:
The more time we have to get up and running and meet these crises, the better.
CHUCK TODD:
-- a Senate impeachment trial --
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
A presentation by the parties will commence the week of February the 8th.
CHUCK TODD:
-- may make it harder to both change the tone and delay passage of his agenda.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
It’s unconstitutional, it sets a bad precedent for the presidency and it continues to divide the nation.
REP NANCY PELOSI:
I don't think it's very unifying to say, “oh, let’s just forget it,” and move on.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, joining me now is President Biden's chief of staff, Ron Klain. Mr. Klain, welcome back to Meet the Press. And day four, I believe now, of this presidency.
RON KLAIN:
Yes.
CHUCK TODD:
So let me start with a contradiction or a potential contradiction -- Jeff Zients, your Covid-19 coordinator indicated that you guys had to build this vaccine distribution program from scratch. Dr. Fauci in the White House briefing room said, "No, we're not building it from scratch." Give me an assessment now after three or four days of this of what you inherited in this vaccine distribution program.
RON KLAIN:
Yeah, look, I think -- Chuck, I think those two statements actually reconcile more than you might think. I think what Dr. Fauci's saying is, of course, a year of really amazing scientific breakthrough and discovery created this vaccine in record time. And we have seen the initial wave of vaccinations take place. So that is progress we are building on. There's no question about it. But the process to distribute the vaccine, particularly outside of nursing homes and hospitals out into the community as a whole did not really exist when we came into the White House. As everyone in America has seen, the way in which people get vaccine is chaotic. It's very limited. We've seen this factor all over the country where millions of doses have been distributed. About half of that has been given out. So the process of getting that vaccine into arms, that's the hard process, that's where we're behind as a country and that's where we're focused, in the Biden administration, on getting that ramped up.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask something very specific on that. We have about a 20 million dose gap, right, of what's been distributed and what's gotten into people's arms. Where is, where is the hold ups? Is this, is this on the states and how they've been distributing? You know, I -- look, we all have personal experiences. My mother's in Florida, need I say more about what we've watched in Florida. What is this gap, this hold up? Where is the bottleneck?
RON KLAIN:
Yeah, Chuck, I think it's many bottlenecks. Like all complex processes, this is a very complex process that needs help on all fronts. We need more vaccine. We need more vaccinators. We need more vaccination sites. And in the Biden administration, we're tackling all three. You know, you said at the top, the fundamental difference between the Biden approach and the Trump approach is that we're going to take responsibility at the federal government. We're going to own this problem. We're going to work closely with the states. They are our key partners in getting this done. But we're also going to do the work ourselves. We're going to set up these federal vaccination centers to make sure that in states that don't have enough vaccination sites, we fill those gaps. We're going to work closely with the manufacturers to ramp up production. One of the first orders the president signed was using his legal authority under the Defense Production Act to mandate the production of more vials that can extract more doses out, more syringes that could extract more doses out of the existing vaccine vials. So we're going to use all the powers we have in the White House. We're going to work with Congress to get more funding to also accelerate this so that we could improve the rate at which we're vaccinating people.
CHUCK TODD:
You -- when you set out, the 100 million vaccinations in the first 100 days, that was before the election. It was before we had the vaccines. It was considered both, I think, both aspirational at the time, and at the same time, we better meet that goal. So I guess where are we now on that goal in your mind? And is there a point where you're going to raise the bar when new vaccines come on line?
RON KLAIN:
Yeah, so Chuck, I think it is still a very bold and ambitious goal. I know you wrote about it just before the inauguration that the Biden presidency would be measured by this goal. And we understand that. We take responsibility for that. And I think it is, you know -- this country has never given 100 million shots in 100 days. So if we can do that, I think it would be quite an accomplishment. But obviously, we're not going to stop there. I mean, 100 million people, 100 million shots is a bold, ambitious goal. But we need to keep going after that. So that is our goal. That is our first goal. It's not our final goal. It's not the end point. It's just a metric that the American people can watch and measure how we're doing.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, as you know, there's always going to be a lot of people second guessing a lot of things. So here we are asking about vaccine distribution. And now I've got to ask you about vaccine skepticism. Hank Aaron's death -- Robert Kennedy Jr. jumped on Hank Aaron's death because 18 days before he died, he was vaccinated. Here's Robert F. Kennedy's tweet, "Hank Aaron's tragic death is part of a wave of suspicious deaths among elderly closely following administration of Covid vaccines." This was something Michael Osterholm warned about, a lot of people warned about, that the anti-vaxxers would take advantage of situations like this. How do you counter-program this?
RON KLAIN:
You know, Chuck, it's a great point. It's a great concern. I mean, I understand, in some people's minds it's ironic that we have a lot of people who want to get the vaccine who can't get it, and why are we worried about the people who don't want to get the vaccine? Well, we have to worry about those people because unless we can reduce vaccine hesitancy, unless we can get all Americans to take this vaccine, we're going to continue to see Covid be a problem in our country. So we have appointed a task force -- first of all, one focused on health equity. We know a lot of this hesitancy is located in communities of color. We're going to tackle that problem with trusted communicators, with direct on the ground communication and try to win over those people who are vaccine hesitant. We're going to obviously try to work with the social media companies to lessen the amount of disinformation that's available online and get the truth out there. And, of course, the president himself has tried to set the example. He got his vaccinations in public, as did the vice president, to try to show people that the vaccine is safe and effective. This is a big challenge, Chuck, there's no question about it -- something we'll be working on every day.
CHUCK TODD:
One more thing on vaccine distribution, a couple of governors have talked about trying to purchase vaccines directly. I think Governor Whitmer of Michigan, Governor Cuomo of New York have hinted at this. Is that helpful to you or could that actually make your job harder?
RON KLAIN:
Well, I think, Chuck, as a matter of law, this vaccine is under an emergency use, use authorization. I don't think that's possible. I understand why the governors are frustrated, and understandably frustrated. We're going to ramp up production. We're going to ramp up distribution. We're going to work closely with governors. We're going to get this vaccine to the American people. It is going to be bumpy. There are going to -- the president acknowledged this week, there are going to be setbacks, there are going to be bad days. But we're working on this hard every single day. And you know, I'm sure I'll be back on this program to discuss it again and again. And you can hold me to account whether or not we make progress or not.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to ask you about Covid relief -- the $1.9 trillion bill that you have proposed. Here's what Punchbowl reported about Speaker Pelosi on Saturday. "Speaker Nancy Pelosi told donors on a Zoom call Thursday night that she wanted to pass Biden's Covid-relief bill in two weeks using budget reconciliation." Look, I think a lot of us have identified that Congressional Democratic leadership may have much less patience than President Biden has in trying to find bipartisan cooperation. What, what is that level of patience? How much patience does President Biden have in trying to find ten Republicans and avoid having to do this on a party-line vote?
RON KLAIN:
Well, we were going to move fast and we're going to move bipartisan. As you said at the top of the show, the president's chief economic advisor is meeting by phone, Zoom, today with 16 senators -- eight Democrats, eight Republicans. We're reaching out to people. I don't think bipartisanship and speed are enemies of one another. The need is urgent. Americans, both Democrats and Republicans, are dying. Kids' schools that take care of both Democratic and Republican kids are closed. People are on unemployment. People are in food lines. That's not a party issue. So I think let's try to move on a bipartisan basis. Let's try to move quickly. Speed is very important here, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
Are you willing, for instance, to table your push for upping the minimum wage if it got you the ten Republicans you needed and you got everything else?
RON KLAIN:
Chuck, I am not going to negotiate on Meet the Press.
CHUCK TODD:
Why not?
RON KLAIN:
Our goal is to raise the minimum wage. It’s something that -- well, it doesn't seem like it's the most effective way to get things done --
CHUCK TODD:
I know.
RON KLAIN:
-- in my view. But look, here's the point though which is the president put a plan before the country. And I think that's what the country wanted to hear. You know, I think, again, without delving back into the past, I think we didn't have this kind of leadership before. He said, "Here's what needs to happen." And we're very dedicated to passing the minimum wage. We think that's an urgent priority. We're going to push the Congress to push our priorities. And that includes the minimum wage. And so what we want to do is work with the Congress, reach out to members in both parties, see what we can get done as quickly as possible. We certainly think the minimum wage should be part of this urgent relief package.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to ask you about your relationship already with Senate Republicans. Mitch McConnell and Joe Biden, we know they have a long, personal history. How do you, how would you describe the cooperation you feel you've gotten so far from Senate Republicans?
RON KLAIN:
You know, Chuck, I think by and large, we've seen a lot of progress on this front. Obviously, we got some Senate hearings held, held by Republican-led committees for our nominees before the switchover here this past week. We've seen obviously two of our Cabinet nominees confirmed already, Director Haines, Secretary Austin. And we hope to get votes on a number of others this week. Look, I wish that we could get a little less Republican blocking on Secretary-designate Mayorkas. It's very important to have a head of Homeland Security. It's a critical need. Our homeland obviously is always under threats. I wish we could move that a little faster. Hopefully we'll see progress this week. But we're grateful to the Senate Republicans who’ve worked with us on these national security nominees.
CHUCK TODD:
Is, is President Biden ever going to tell the public how he would vote, how he wants senators to vote on the impeachment trial? Is that something he will share publicly before, before the trial's over?
RON KLAIN:
I don't know, Chuck. I mean, I think he's busy doing his job which is being president, fixing these crises we've been talking about. He's not a senator. He's not going to vote on impeachment. So I think his focus is on being president, not on doing the job he used to have, which is being a U.S. senator.
CHUCK TODD:
Ron Klain, there is about 7,000 other issues I'd like to ask questions about. But ten minute -- you know, how do you tackle an elephant, right, one bite at a time. We did our first ten-minute bite today. Ron Klain, chief of staff for President Biden, thank you for coming on and sharing your perspective, sir.
RON KLAIN:
Thanks for having me, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
You got it. Coming up, is there any chance Democrats and Republicans can work together, especially with another impeachment trial on the way? I'll talk to Senators Dirk Durbin and Mike Rounds when we return.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Tomorrow evening Speaker Nancy Pelosi will walk the House's single article of impeachment against now former President Trump to the Senate. That will trigger the start of the trial process, but that will be delayed for two weeks to give both sides time to prepare their cases and, perhaps, the Senate to do some other work. There's never been an impeachment trial of a former president. Republicans argue it could jeopardize the spirit of unity President Biden has been urging. So joining me now are the Senate Democrat Whip, Dick Durbin of Illinois, and Republican Senator Mike Rounds of South Dakota. Welcome to both of you. Senator Durbin, I want to start and do the first interview with you. And let me start with sort of the complication of negotiating Covid relief. You've got the impeachment trial. Let me ask this, is it realistic at all that you could come to a compromise, find your 10 Republicans before February 8th and get this Covid relief passed? Or is that a little Pollyannaish of me?
SEN. DICK DURBIN:
Well, I hope it will happen that way because the American people know we're in the midst of a deadly pandemic. Our economy has been damaged and is struggling. The rescue package that President Biden has sent to us is one of the highest importance and sense of urgency. So, I hope we can really roll up our sleeves and get that done in that period of time that you've mentioned.
CHUCK TODD:
What is the role you would like President Biden to play in these negotiations on Covid relief and, and how much patience do you have to work with Republicans, versus, we know Speaker Pelosi is ready to just go now to budget reconciliation. How much time do you want to give it?
SEN. DICK DURBIN:
Well, I can tell you, I think among some Republicans in the Senate, there is a feeling that we can have a constructive, not confrontational, but a constructive, dialogue. You mentioned the group of senators, I'm one of them, who will be on the phone this afternoon -- 16 senators, bipartisan group, eight Democrats, eight Republicans -- and the object is to try to see if there's an area of agreement that we can launch when it comes to this rescue package. So I am hopeful that we can show right off the bat that bipartisanship is alive in the Senate.
CHUCK TODD:
And are you open to -- that some things might not get there? You know we -- if the minimum wage hike is what is standing in the way of three Republicans versus 12 Republicans supporting the rest of the deal, is that worth tabling, tabling that debate to another time period?
SEN. DICK DURBIN:
Come on, Chuck. You asked Ron Klain the same question. Are you willing to negotiate on Meet the Press --
CHUCK TODD:
You weren't supposed to listen. Yeah, I was hoping you hadn't heard that answer.
SEN. DICK DURBIN:
-- And I can just tell you, no, I'm not willing to negotiate on the television program. Will we put things on the table and discuss them? Of course we will. That's the nature of compromise. And there's some goals, I certainly share all of the goals of the president. I hope we can keep as many as possible in the package.
CHUCK TODD:
There’s a lot of groups -- I want to get to the filibuster now. There’s a lot of progressive groups that have no patience on the filibuster debate. And I know you guys are going to get inundated with some ads that are already on social media. Here’s one we’re putting up: “The time has come” here. It looks like a movie trailer and they quote Barack Obama saying, “Jim Crow relic.” AOC calling it a “cherished tool of segregationists.” And former Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid saying it has “outlived its usefulness.” Do you have a point in time -- where are you on this filibuster question -- and is there a point where you’re going to say you know what, I’ve tried long enough?
SEN. DICK DURBIN:
Well, I think it gets down to the bottom line here, the American people want us to take action. Action on this pandemic, action on this economy and on a host of other issues. And if this filibuster has now become so common in the Senate that we can’t act, that we just sit there helpless, shame on us. Of course we should consider a change in rule under those circumstances, but let’s see. Let’s see if we can initiate a real bipartisan dialogue and get something done. That’s the bottom line.
CHUCK TODD:
Harry Reid, in fact, suggests giving it a couple of months. Would you put a -- I've almost wondered when -- Senator Schumer and Senator McConnell negotiating, are you willing to say “Okay, we won't do it for six months. Let's see how you behave.”
SEN. DICK DURBIN:
Well, let me answer your question, by citing another thing. We're trying to pass an organizing resolution -- you know what that's all about -- so that the committees can get down to business. And what Chuck Schumer put on the table was word for word the bipartisan agreement the last time we had a 50-50 Senate. And Senator McConnell came back and said, “No, I want absolute protection, the filibuster will not be touched.” Well, that's a non-starter, because if we gave him that, then the filibuster would be on everything, every day. So here's the bottom line: if we are going to work in a bipartisan fashion, let's pass the organizing resolution without the extra McConnell language. Let's get down to business, roll up our sleeves and pass this rescue package that deals with getting these vaccines out across America as quickly as possible, giving help to people who are unemployed and giving businesses a helping hand. We want to get the economy back on its feet, we want to get kids back in school. Let's do that as a priority on a bipartisan basis.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to end with a question I will be asking Senator Rounds, as well. When you heard President Biden's call for unity, what did that mean to you? Define his call for unity.
SEN. DICK DURBIN:
It means a lot. It means a new president who truly is going to reach out in a respectful way to the Republicans and to the Democrats to get something done. I know Joe Biden and I served with him and Kamala Harris. They know how to pass legislation by working in a respectful way, constructive way with Republicans who want to help us get America moving again. I heard that loud and clear, and that's why I think Joe Biden won the election on November 3rd.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, Senator Dick Durbin, Democrat from Illinois. The number two in leadership. And also now chair of the Judiciary Committee or will be when you guys come to an organizing agreement, we can officially call you that. Senator Durbin, thank you for coming on and sharing your perspective with us.
SEN. DICK DURBIN:
Thanks, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me turn now to you, Senator Rounds. And as I promised, that last question to him is going to be my first question to you. When President Biden called for unity in his inaugural speech, how do -- how do you define that call for unity in your head?
SEN. MIKE ROUNDS:
Well, it begins, first of all, by recognizing that there are different points of view about how we move forward with regard to the pandemic. And I think we all want to have the same goal of eliminating this pandemic as quickly as we can. But what's the right philosophy? Second of all, it's with regard to how we move things through the Senate. Are we prepared to actually take and to look at both sides and what's the best of both? Can we sit down and actually work together on issues? Infrastructure's one area where we may very well be able to work together on things. But let's test it and let's find out whether or not we can actually come to a consensus that will last long-term, not just for one or two years.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to ask you specifically about the Covid-relief bill, the $1.9 trillion here. And I'm wondering if, if you believe that, look, the election has consequences. Seven, you know, Joe Biden won by seven million votes. Is that a mandate? Should that not be considered a mandate to go in his direction on covid, at least, for a period of time? Does he not get some benefit of the doubt, in your mind, or no?
SEN. MIKE ROUNDS:
Yeah, I really don't think we're that far off with regard to the direction for covid relief. Specifically in targeted areas. I think we all want to make sure that we properly funded the availability of vaccines. A good plan for getting out in all states. And in South Dakota one of the biggest challenges we've got is knowing in advance how many we're going to get per week. But as soon as we get it here, we're getting it out. Those are the types of things -- I think we're going to find ourselves in agreement with a number of different areas there. The real challenge is, is whether or not Democrats are prepared to perhaps release some of the items that are not specifically targeted to covid relief. You know on the one -- Chuck, you brought it up earlier, minimum wage development. When I was a governor, I actually looked at it here in South Dakota, when I was in the South Dakota legislature, I actually voted for it. But that doesn't mean that I did it without putting together consensus on it. And if you're going to talk about an emergency operation, why would you then include and demand that that be a part of it? I think that's just looking for a way not to get some things done that might very well have to be in the next couple of weeks.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, let me ask you this, would you support some raise in the minimum wage? I mean, you know -- when we consider -- it does seem as if some of these things are negotiable, we haven't raised the minimum wage in years. It's sitting at $7.25. Would you raise it if it was $12 instead of $15? Would that make it easier for you to support this bill?
SEN. MIKE ROUNDS:
I think the bigger issue here is, is whether or not we're going to be specific on covid relief. If you want to do those other items such as that, then let's break it out, let's separate it out, take the time and do it correct. But let's go back in and focus, once again, on covid relief. And I'll say this again, look, Republicans and Democrats alike want to get ahead of this as quickly as we can. Warp speed worked. It was done literally unanimously. The Senate worked together to get that done. We've done something here in a matter of 10 to 12 months that has never been done before with the creation of new vaccines and getting literally millions and millions of these out. It was a consensus-driven approach that everybody in the United States Senate literally supported or it couldn't have been done that quickly. That's doable again. But we didn't try to include other things that many of us would have liked to have had included because we knew that we had to find consensus. Let's focus on those things that we can get done that we agree are specifically targeted to covid relief.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me move to the impeachment. Do you believe Donald Trump committed an impeachment offense?
SEN. MIKE ROUNDS:
To begin with, I think it's a moot point. Because I think right now Donald Trump is no longer the president. He is a former president. Constitution, and I think -- and I know that there are other people out there that may disagree with me, but Article One, sections, I think it's three or six and seven, specifically point out that you can impeach the president. And it does not indicate that you can impeach someone who is not in office. So I, I think it's a moot point. And I think it's one that they would have a very difficult time in trying to get done within the Senate. But for right now, I think there are other things that we'd rather be working on instead. I know that the Biden administration would love to have more of their cabinet in place. There's a number of Republicans who also feel the same way. We should allow this president the opportunity to form his cabinet and to get that in place as quickly as possible. If we start working on an impeachment which looks like we're going to end up doing, we've only got a couple of weeks here in which to actually work through and allow this president an opportunity to form a cabinet. A lot of us would prefer to maybe work through those issues instead.
CHUCK TODD:
Senator, I want to note something you did on a press release the day before the insurrection. You wrote, "I wholeheartedly support an independent investigation into the 2020 election. I'm interested in restoring faith, certainty, and transparency for the American voter. And unless we get to the bottom of these allegations I fear American's faith in our electoral process is in great jeopardy." Obviously, the next night, you know, colleagues of yours, including Mitt Romney, said, you know, part of the problem here with sort of appeasing this belief that something went wrong with the election is that: these people were lied to. Do you at all regret this statement that basically you helped further this lie, even, even, even indirectly, by implying there should be some investigation for allegations that just didn’t -- don't exist?
SEN. MIKE ROUNDS:
I still believe that we should have an investigation. But -- and I think it should be bipartisan in nature. 74 millions, 74 million Americans supported President Trump. There's probably 50 million Americans out there that have questions about whether or not --
CHUCK TODD:
But whose fault is that?
SEN. MIKE ROUNDS:
-- the election was fair.
CHUCK TODD:
Whose fault is that?
SEN. MIKE ROUNDS:
Well, look --
CHUCK TODD:
Isn’t that -- I mean, they were fed a lie.
SEN. MIKE ROUNDS:
-- the best way to approach this -- well, see and I think, I think Democrats should have an interest in doing this as well because in a bipartisan approach they can actually point out what they believe to be the purpose. And very honestly, I will tell you that I think if you move this through -- if you move this forward and you allow for an investigation to actually look, you're going to find that the election was fair. That's my belief. But at the same time, let's show it to the American people. Let's point out that -- if there's misinformation out there, which I believe there was, then let's put that out and lay it out so the people can see it. I think that said, we've got a piece of legislation in Senate Bill 13 which would do exactly that. Republicans and Democrats alike should support that. We want those 50 million Americans plus to feel that they have full faith in the election process. And we think that those states did a good job. But the best way to do it is to work our way through it and allow them and actually show them publicly how well it was actually run.
CHUCK TODD:
Senator Rounds, Republican from South Dakota, I appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective with us. Thank you very much.
SEN. MIKE ROUNDS:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
When we come back, impeachment part two. The panel is next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back, the panel is joining us. NBC News Chief Washington Correspondent, Andrea Mitchell, New York Times columnist David Brooks, Yamiche Alcindor, White House Correspondent for PBS NewsHour and Tim Alberta, Chief Political Correspondent for Politico. I am sorry you guys don't get to enjoy our new green room as well. I swear, it's unbelievable food and everything, David and Andrea. You won't believe what you've missed. Andrea Mitchell, I feel like we are suddenly in a race here. We've got the impeachment trial, we've got the pandemic, Covid relief. We're going to know in about three weeks how functional Washington will be on a bipartisan basis or not. Do you see it the same way -- that we're going to find out quickly whether this is going to be a functional bipartisan government or not?
ANDREA MITCHELL:
Absolutely. And from my sources within the White House and the Hill, the Democrats believe that they can at least try to do this in a bipartisan way -- that Covid is so urgent, that the country is crying out for vaccines to be distributed equitably and quickly. And so the White House believes that they have at least some time on their hands in these first few days to use pressure, public pressure, against the Republicans to try to get not only an organizing agreement and all the nuts and bolts and get those committees going, but get this legislation going. And that they're not going to have to face the filibuster crisis until later, later down the road.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Yamiche, it feels like we’re going to -- one of the first interesting tests are going to be when Congressional Democratic leaders run out of patience but President Biden hasn't.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
That's right. But this is a new Washington with some of the same old problems and some of the same increasingly hostile and increasingly, increasingly in some ways, apparent divisions. What you see here is Joe Biden talking about unity. But even in his inaugural address he said some people might see that as foolish because there is also this Democratic base that is increasingly important to the Democrats that wants to see accountability as well as help with this Covid-19 pandemic. Sources in the White House that I've been talking to say they really hope that the fact that there is really no big plan for how to get the, the vaccine into the arms of Americans, that will push Republicans to get on board because the Trump administration, from my understanding, their plan was to dump the vaccine into states and get them to figure out how to, how to deal with it. But you already saw this week, Republicans are really talking about power more than unity. You see Senate, you see Senate Minority Leader now, Mitch McConnell, exerting in the minority power trying to get as much as he possibly can get out of this Senate. And that, to me, tells me a little bit about how Republicans are going to play this.
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy saying that Biden has the wrong priorities at the wrong time, that also, it shows you how Republicans are playing this.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, David Brooks, it does -- do you think in order to pursue a bipartisan Washington, President Biden has to pick basically between going big and bold on Covid relief and other things or trying to get bipartisanship, that you can't do both? Do you buy that?
DAVID BROOKS:
No, actually. You know, there's some stuff they put in the bill in order to take it out, like the minimum wage. They're going to give that away. There's a bunch of stuff like that. But you know, my view is Biden has to do bipartisanship. His whole campaign was built on unity. If he doesn't do that, he makes his campaign a lie. So he has to try it. And I'm reasonably optimistic they can do it. Every Republican I talk to says, "Yeah, I know Joe Biden. Biden's a trustworthy guy." There are also a bunch of things in the Covid relief bill a lot of Republicans have already been for, like the child tax credit and other things. The Republican Party is just incredibly divided in a way that's different than I've ever seen. They've always been divided over ideology. But now it's in every family. And so I just think the Republicans have the potential to go along. And if they don't, then finally maybe Joe Manchin and some of the moderates who don't like the filibuster or want to keep it, they'll be willing to vote to end it.
CHUCK TODD:
Tim Alberta, what about a guy like Mike Rounds? You've, you’ve covered Mike Rounds. I've covered him as both governor, as senator. We know he is sort of a -- he’s moderate in tone. He may be conservative in ideology, he's moderate in tone. I can tell that he's uncomfortable with perhaps where his constituents are pushing him, maybe where his instincts want to be. How many of those senators exist? And how hard is this pressure they're feeling about, they might want to work with Biden, but their constituents believe working with a Democrat is akin to working with China or something like that?
TIM ALBERTA:
Chuck, it's a great question. And I think there are probably more of those Republican senators than many of us realize. And I think one of Joe Biden's sort of unique gifts here stepping into this role as president at a time like this, is that he knows not just how many there are, but who those individuals are. And he knows sort of which buttons to push and, and when to push them and then when to sort of back off. And keep in mind, you know, Joe Biden was in a similar position 12 years ago as vice president incoming in the Obama administration. And there was, there was some belief that with the stimulus package that was pushed through very hastily without any Republican votes, that that was a tactical mistake, that in some ways, it sort of poisoned the well with certain Republicans on the Hill who, had they taken a little bit more time, would have been willing to sign onto that deal. So I think that that memory still haunts Biden a little bit. And I think that he, he is going to want to give some of these folks, like a Mike Rounds, he is going to want to give them a little bit more time, make sure that he gives them every opportunity to say, "Yes," before he has to move forward without them.
CHUCK TODD:
Andrea Mitchell, I want to quote something from Bloomberg from a couple of weeks ago. "Much of Biden's agenda as president will depend on how well Chuck Schumer rises to the occasion, though Biden will also be able to draw on his own relationships dating from his long tenure in the Senate." Boy, Harry Reid, Mitch McConnell, those guys, you know, went back and forth. Now it's Chuck Schumer's turn. Is he, is he ready for this? Is he up to it?
ANDREA MITCHELL:
Well, that's a big question because Harry Reid and Mitch McConnell never even talked to each other. It was so toxic up there. You know, a quarter of the Senate has changed in just the four years since Joe Biden was given his fond farewell from the Senate to, you know, to leave as vice president. So a lot has changed there. And Schumer doesn't have those muscles. He knows the Senate, he knows the rules as well as Mitch McConnell does. But they have not worked together. And so they have -- this is new memory that they have to learn.
CHUCK TODD:
We shall see, and new scar tissue they have to develop. Before we go to break, a word about one of the greatest and most underappreciated athletes in American history. Hank Aaron, who died on Friday, was best known for breaking Babe Ruth's homerun record. But Aaron was so much more than a slugger. As a baseball player, he was also a graceful outfielder, a fast and smart base runner. But he was also more than just a baseball player. Most of all, he was a kind, modest gentleman who endured unspeakable racism as he approached a white man's hallowed record. Aaron appeared on Meet the Press with Tim Russert two decades ago. Take a listen.
[BEGIN TAPE]
TIM RUSSERT:
Do you ever wake up in the morning and say, "I broke Babe Ruth's record. I am the greatest homerun hitter in the history of baseball?"
HANK AARON:
I think about it sometimes. And yet, I don't dwell on it as much, you know, because I went through some very tough times. I'm just happy that I did it. It's over with, done with.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
He went through a lot having to break that record. Aaron finished with 755 home runs, the most ever at the time.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Data Download time. A new president. A new Congressional makeup. Same old partisan divides, right? Yes and no. There's the traditional red-blue divide you're very familiar with, but there's a lot more below the surface going on in both parties. Let's set the table. About four in 10 registered voters identify either as Democrats or lean Democratic in the latest NBC News poll. It's a little fewer than that that identify as Republicans or lean Republicans on the other side. The remainder are what we call the very hard independent, or people that simply don't care to answer. But if you dig into those two partisan groups, you in fact find that four political parties are emerging in the data. Let me show you. 17 percent consider themselves to be mostly supporters of former President Donald Trump. We're going to call them the Trump Republican. Another 17 percent call themselves supporters of the Republican Party more so than Donald Trump. The traditional Republican, another 17 percent, as you see there. Now, let's look at the other side of the aisle. 17 percent say they are Democrats who support Joe Biden in the primaries. We're going to call them the Biden Democrats. Another 17 percent supported more left-learning candidates, Senators Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren. Yes, you are reading this right. That is 17s across the board. Does it get more evenly divided than that? And those breakdowns could matter when it comes to governing. Let me show you. Trump Republicans are firmly against compromising with Biden in order to gain consensus on legislation, as you can see. But party Republicans, they feel very differently, with more than half in favor of making compromises with Biden in order to gain some consensus in legislation. On the Democratic side, the divides are there, too. They're not as -- they’re not as wide, though. Seven in 10 Biden Democrats want Congressional Democrats to work on passing the Biden agenda, but among the more liberal Sanders-Warren Democrats, support for passing a Biden agenda, still high, but falls to 60 percent, so you see that growing gap. Look, are we ready to be a four-party system? Are we Europe? No, probably not. But if you understand this four-party world, you can actually make it easier on yourself to form a governing coalition, something the Biden White House may want to think about. When we come back, can Washington really turn the page after the tumultuous Trump era?
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. So, let's focus on impeachment. Yamiche, what's the politics of this country going to look like after impeachment?
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
It's a great question and, in some ways, I think the politics of this country is going to look much like it looked like right after the siege on Capitol Hill. There are so many Democrats who want to see President Trump held accountable and to see him barred from office because they don't want to see a resurgence of President Trump, in particular, or his brand of politics that was so embedded in racist tropes, in white supremacy, critics would say. But then you see Republicans like Mike Rounds, who say, "Yes, the election was free and fair, but we should still go off and make sure we spend time investigating it." That’s going to be -- if that's what someone who believes the election was free and fair says, you can imagine what the people who don't believe the election was free and fair would say. And one other thing, I think it's really interesting that Joe Biden, in calling for bipartisanship, he's having to contend with Republicans who voted to say that he wasn't a legitimately elected president.
CHUCK TODD:
David Brooks, how do we deal with the Trump era on the accountability front? I mean, look at the latest stuff out of the Justice Department. I mean, it just gets more cringe worthy by the drip. Especially if he ends up acquitted?
DAVID BROOKS:
Yeah, I'm all for prosecuting everybody who did everything wrong. I'm all for prosecuting. As for impeachment, I'm hoping it'll just be like a passing wind, like it'll go on for two days, we'll have an extremely partisan vote, and then we can get back to the new America, the Joe Biden America. I would have faith that the Senate could do impeachment and covid at the same time if Lyndon Baines Johnson were up there or Henry Clay. But you know, I see the Three Stooges up there and the gang that couldn't shoot straight, so I just don't have faith in the Senate's capacity to do both at once. I hope they do it, get it out of the way in a couple of days, and move on.
CHUCK TODD:
Tim Alberta, what's the Republican Party going to look like after impeachment?
TIM ALBERTA:
Chuck, it's pretty interesting. I've spoken with number of Republicans in recent days, including a couple of Republicans who are going to run for president in 2024. And what I've heard has been pretty striking, that many of them actually would like to see President Trump convicted. Whether or not they'll follow through on that vote remains to be seen, but they'd like to see President Trump convicted. What they fear is that right now, without a conviction, the president has already begun to fade from public consciousness. His Twitter feed was taken away. He's not the 800-pound gorilla dominating the news cycle. They fear that a conviction could actually, sort of, drag him right back center stage, make a martyr of him, and actually allow him, in some strange way, to exercise even more influence, more control over the party moving forward than if they were just to let him alone and let him sort of fade into obscurity on his own.
CHUCK TODD:
I tell you, I don't think any of us expected how powerful the de-platforming would be in suddenly getting him to fade away. It's a reminder he's kind of a little bit lazy in figuring out how to get around it. Before we go, we have a word about someone who has been a huge influence on me, on my executive producer, and frankly all of us at NBC News. It's Tom Brokaw. He is one of those men who truly needs no introduction, particularly here. He is retiring after 57 years at this network. We'd need another hour to name everything Tom has done here. But as he wrote to me yesterday, "The first television news broadcast I saw was The Huntley-Brinkley Report and I was hooked. By 1966, I was briefing David Brinkley on Ronald Reagan's campaign for governor of California. And that was quickly followed by White House correspondent during Nixon and Watergate, host of Today, anchor of Nightly News, and interim anchor of Meet The Press." Tom went on to say, "I never tired of it. And the men and women of NBC were and will remain family forever." You know, Andrea, I got the privilege after the tragedy of Tim's death in 2008 to basically be Tom's wingman as he was the interim host here at Meet The Press. And one thing he instilled into me, he said, "NBC, other networks may do some other things better than us, but nobody does politics better than us. Don't forget it." Andrea?
ANDREA MITCHELL:
Well, that's absolutely true. And you know, he coined the phrase, the greatest generation, in the book he wrote in 1998 after his first trip to Normandy in '94. It’s just -- think about one day. I think about December 9, 2015, the day that candidate Trump announced the Muslim ban. Tom was in New York having three hours of chemo, his arm in an IV. With one hand, he writes an essay. And he writes an essay and flies to D.C., about the dangers of paranoia trumping reason, about the internments of Japanese Americans, about McCarthy, about the way Black Americans were speaking. And then he speaks about this Muslim American who enlisted after 9/11 and that he has a permanent home in Arlington. That same night, he goes to the German Embassy. I was there. And he gets the highest possible award from the German government for what he did in 1989 in front of the Berlin Wall. The only American anchor to foresee what was going to happen, to be there because of the great reporter he is and was, the great writer. So, that's the legacy.
CHUCK TODD:
And he's not going away.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
I mean, just the diplomat. He's not going away.
CHUCK TODD:
He's not going away. He's an important touchstone for me on a weekly and bi-weekly basis, for all of us.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
And for me.
CHUCK TODD:
And you're going to be hearing from him a lot. Thank you, Tom. We love you. That's all for today. Thank you for watching. We'll be back next week because, if it's Sunday, it's Meet The Press. Go Packers.